Comments on: Torture, the Law of the Land - and The Torture Mastermind Reviewed http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/ Author James Bovard Sat, 11 Feb 2012 23:49:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: John Lowell http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-5022 John Lowell Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:05:53 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-5022 Jim, Sorry to be getting back to you so late on this quetion. You say: "John - I don’t think we have passed into an “American National Socialism.” The terms of the debate accepted by major parties in Germany in the early 1930s were significantly darker than the political baselines in this country." The point I'd made about the character of non-nationalist parties in early thirties Germany was that there occured a kind of convergence with the National Socialists, so much so that by the time of Hitler ascension to power in January of 1933 much of their official policy was indistinguishable from the National Socialists. While I'd agree with you that the situation at the time was dark, is it any less dark today to find in Congress a virtual one party state when it comes to war and policy in the Middle East? When coupled with the wire-tapping, torture and war enthusiasms I fail to see the difference? John Lowell Jim,

Sorry to be getting back to you so late on this quetion. You say:

“John - I don’t think we have passed into an “American National Socialism.” The terms of the debate accepted by major parties in Germany in the early 1930s were significantly darker than the political baselines in this country.”

The point I’d made about the character of non-nationalist parties in early thirties Germany was that there occured a kind of convergence with the National Socialists, so much so that by the time of Hitler ascension to power in January of 1933 much of their official policy was indistinguishable from the National Socialists. While I’d agree with you that the situation at the time was dark, is it any less dark today to find in Congress a virtual one party state when it comes to war and policy in the Middle East? When coupled with the wire-tapping, torture and war enthusiasms I fail to see the difference?

John Lowell

]]> By: MarkN http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4904 MarkN Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:08:53 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4904 All this demonstrates that belief in the rule of law is delusional. The law will be written by, and enforced (or not enforced) by people who only want power. Our freedom cannot be protected by words or documents meant to constrain government power. If we are to have government, the only way to keep it in check is through fear. As "V" in "V for Vendetta" paraphrased Jefferson: "People should not be afraid of their governments; governments should be afraid of their people." Written words just won't cut it. Nor will belief in some heroic politician coming to rescue us on a white horse. That's just the "leader" fallacy. Government itself is the real problem and needs to be eliminated from our lives. All this demonstrates that belief in the rule of law is delusional. The law will be written by, and enforced (or not enforced) by people who only want power. Our freedom cannot be protected by words or documents meant to constrain government power. If we are to have government, the only way to keep it in check is through fear. As “V” in “V for Vendetta” paraphrased Jefferson: “People should not be afraid of their governments; governments should be afraid of their people.” Written words just won’t cut it. Nor will belief in some heroic politician coming to rescue us on a white horse. That’s just the “leader” fallacy. Government itself is the real problem and needs to be eliminated from our lives.

]]> By: Fred Corron http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4896 Fred Corron Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:03:10 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4896 If we examine each of Bush's rationales for the abuse of prisoners, we find that he is keeping his true motives secret. I've concluded that the abuse is a form of what is known as Satanic "ritual" (repetitive, routine) abuse, which is the core activity of Satanism, despite the "assurances" of Satanists that it, along with organized Satanism, doesn't even exist. I know that these are real phenomena, because I was abused in the form of sleep deprivation by a cell of three Satanists, who hide behind a front known as Triangles, for 18 months while essentially trapped by circumstances in that situation. For details on this perspective, see http://fakeapoc.tripod.com/satanism/sra/sra_hub_page_of_satans_fake_apocalypse_website.htm This would make the "war" in Iraq Satanism on a vast scale, with most of our own soldiers as victims of the abuse, along with the vast majority of Iraqis. It is also, in my opinion, a means of provoking further conflict, eventually leading to the "Apocalypse" (which Bush apparently believes he can arrange, thus "fulfilling prophecy" or "keeping promises"), as well as a means of manufacturing false "confessions" to "justify" Bush's policies. If we examine each of Bush’s rationales for the abuse of prisoners, we find that he is keeping his true motives secret. I’ve concluded that the abuse is a form of what is known as Satanic “ritual” (repetitive, routine) abuse, which is the core activity of Satanism, despite the “assurances” of Satanists that it, along with organized Satanism, doesn’t even exist. I know that these are real phenomena, because I was abused in the form of sleep deprivation by a cell of three Satanists, who hide behind a front known as Triangles, for 18 months while essentially trapped by circumstances in that situation. For details on this perspective, see http://fakeapoc.tripod.com/satanism/sra/sra_hub_page_of_satans_fake_apocalypse_website.htm

This would make the “war” in Iraq Satanism on a vast scale, with most of our own soldiers as victims of the abuse, along with the vast majority of Iraqis. It is also, in my opinion, a means of provoking further conflict, eventually leading to the “Apocalypse” (which Bush apparently believes he can arrange, thus “fulfilling prophecy” or “keeping promises”), as well as a means of manufacturing false “confessions” to “justify” Bush’s policies.

]]> By: Jim http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4881 Jim Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:56:07 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4881 The vast majority of info about the torture policy was suppressed. However, the leaked photos from Abu Ghraib, the leaked Justice Department and Pentagon memos on interrogation policy, the report by General Fay, and some of the other information that came out late in the year should have alarmed anyone who was paying attention. But, perhaps that's why few people were alarmed. The vast majority of info about the torture policy was suppressed.

However, the leaked photos from Abu Ghraib, the leaked Justice Department and Pentagon memos on interrogation policy, the report by General Fay, and some of the other information that came out late in the year should have alarmed anyone who was paying attention.

But, perhaps that’s why few people were alarmed.

]]> By: Prabhata http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4861 Prabhata Mon, 25 Sep 2006 04:47:56 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4861 I agree with everything you say, except that American people did not know enough about Bush's torture policy in 2004 because of suppresssion of almost all information about it. I have a friend who told me he understood perfectly when Bush said that the "gloves were off", hence he was not surprised when the abuses of Abu Ghraib became known. He approved of it. People approve of Bush's torture policies when they approve of his policies of the war on terror. I am one of those who agreed with Clinton that a bj did not constitute sex. Likewise, those who approve of Bush's torture policies do not see it as torture. Americans are not naive. It's very sad. I agree with everything you say, except that American people did not know enough about Bush’s torture policy in 2004 because of suppresssion of almost all information about it. I have a friend who told me he understood perfectly when Bush said that the “gloves were off”, hence he was not surprised when the abuses of Abu Ghraib became known. He approved of it. People approve of Bush’s torture policies when they approve of his policies of the war on terror. I am one of those who agreed with Clinton that a bj did not constitute sex. Likewise, those who approve of Bush’s torture policies do not see it as torture. Americans are not naive. It’s very sad.

]]> By: Jim http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4857 Jim Mon, 25 Sep 2006 03:53:36 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4857 Marty Lederman has a full text of the legislative deal. He posted an excellent analysis at http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/09/senators-snatch-defeat-from-jaws-of.html Marty Lederman has a full text of the legislative deal. He posted an excellent analysis at http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/09/senators-snatch-defeat-from-jaws-of.html

]]> By: Duane http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4854 Duane Mon, 25 Sep 2006 00:40:34 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4854 Everybody has an opinion. But nobody seems to have the facts. Has ANYBODY actually seen a printed copy of the amended legislation or a printed copy of the terms of the agreement struck between McCain and Bush? Everybody has an opinion. But nobody seems to have the facts. Has ANYBODY actually seen a printed copy of the amended legislation or a printed copy of the terms of the agreement struck between McCain and Bush?

]]> By: Jim http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4846 Jim Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:25:08 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4846 It wasn't a criminal conspiracy because it was the government committing the crimes. I suspect this administration holds the same doctrine that deposed Richard Nixon invoked in an interview with David Frost in 1977: “When the president does it that means that it is not illegal.” The core of the Yoo-Bybee August 2002 memo on “Standards of Conduct for Interrogation under 18 U.S.C. §§ 2340–2340A” (the U.S. anti-torture act)was that the president can order torture and also protect people from being prosecuted for torturing. If the files in the White House, Justice Department, and Pentagon were opened on the issue of interrogation policy.... Well, let's just say it would be another day in hell for the political idealists in this country. It wasn’t a criminal conspiracy because it was the government committing the crimes.

I suspect this administration holds the same doctrine that deposed Richard Nixon invoked in an interview with David Frost in 1977: “When the president does it that means that it is not illegal.”

The core of the Yoo-Bybee August 2002 memo on “Standards of Conduct for Interrogation under 18 U.S.C. §§ 2340–2340A” (the U.S. anti-torture act)was that the president can order torture and also protect people from being prosecuted for torturing.

If the files in the White House, Justice Department, and Pentagon were opened on the issue of interrogation policy…. Well, let’s just say it would be another day in hell for the political idealists in this country.

]]> By: jeff davis http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4845 jeff davis Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:26:35 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4845 When abu Ghraib came to light, Bush said, "We followed the law." When, on a second occasion shortly thereafter, he repeated this phrase precisely, I took it to indicate that his advisers had settled on this response as the one which most closely fit the administration's needs. I presume those "needs" to be technical (if tortured) truthfulness and a basic CYA to avoid criminal culpability. From this, and the verifiable facts surrounding the affair, I concluded that Bush/Cheney et al knew they were torturing people and needed legal cover, called in the lawyers (Yoo, Addington, and Gonzalez, but Yoo in particular), and requested from them a legal finding that would show that what they were doing was legal. Thus the careful phrase "We followed the law." I have a problem with this, because it appears to me to be a very clever criminal conspiracy. The legal advisers concoct, with premeditaion, a bogus (criminally bogus?) interpretation of the law -- about which they will later, claim "We were only providing legal interpretaion and in so doing legitimately performing our professional duties". Then, based on this bogus legal advice their perp clients claim, "We followed the law." Then Gonzalez gets promoted to Attorney General, giving a further layer of protection to the conspiritors. There must be a way to defeat this brazen and insulting scheme, and bring to justice those who employ this tactic. I'm not a legal scholar, but if feels like a conspiracy(in the legal sense) to me. When abu Ghraib came to light, Bush said, “We followed the law.” When, on a second occasion shortly thereafter, he repeated this phrase precisely, I took it to indicate that his advisers had settled on this response as the one which most closely fit the administration’s needs. I presume those “needs” to be technical (if tortured) truthfulness and a basic CYA to avoid criminal culpability.

From this, and the verifiable facts surrounding the affair, I concluded that Bush/Cheney et al knew they were torturing people and needed legal cover, called in the lawyers (Yoo, Addington, and Gonzalez, but Yoo in particular), and requested from them a legal finding that would show that what they were doing was legal. Thus the careful phrase “We followed the law.”

I have a problem with this, because it appears to me to be a very clever criminal conspiracy. The legal advisers concoct, with premeditaion, a bogus (criminally bogus?) interpretation of the law — about which they will later, claim “We were only providing legal interpretaion and in so doing legitimately performing our professional duties”. Then, based on this bogus legal advice their perp clients claim, “We followed the law.”

Then Gonzalez gets promoted to Attorney General, giving a further layer of protection to the conspiritors.

There must be a way to defeat this brazen and insulting scheme, and bring to justice those who employ this tactic. I’m not a legal scholar, but if feels like a conspiracy(in the legal sense) to me.

]]> By: Jim http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4844 Jim Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:19:49 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4844 Charlie - I am struck by the apparent total lack of concern by Bush, Rumsfeld, and others about how they are paving the way for captured American troops to receive the same brutal treatment that the US government now dishes out. The JAGS and other courageous officers have been warning on this for years. But perhaps Bush & Co. assume that if captured American soldiers are tortured like the US tortures foreigners, it will simply provide another great chance to make Americans rally around the flag and the president. Charlie - I am struck by the apparent total lack of concern by Bush, Rumsfeld, and others about how they are paving the way for captured American troops to receive the same brutal treatment that the US government now dishes out.

The JAGS and other courageous officers have been warning on this for years.

But perhaps Bush & Co. assume that if captured American soldiers are tortured like the US tortures foreigners, it will simply provide another great chance to make Americans rally around the flag and the president.

]]> By: charlie ehlen http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4843 charlie ehlen Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:08:52 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4843 Constitution? Rule of law? Decency? I guess those are all "out dated" and "quaint" things in America today. Christioan values? Well, if Bush & company are Christian, I am damn glad to be a heather/pagan! I served i9n the Marines and did a tour in Viet Nam. Where was Bushco? Getting deferrments and "playing" at being in the National Guard. Damn cowards! I am not saying that military service is something that should be required of our leaders. My opinion is, those who lead but have never served OUGHT to be very careful about asking the troops to do what they did NOT have the stones to do. Welcome to America 2006, land of torture and wire taps on ALL communications. Constitution? We don't need no stinking Constitution. Just my 2 cents. charlie Constitution? Rule of law? Decency? I guess those are all “out dated” and “quaint” things in America today.
Christioan values? Well, if Bush & company are Christian, I am damn glad to be a heather/pagan!
I served i9n the Marines and did a tour in Viet Nam. Where was Bushco? Getting deferrments and “playing” at being in the National Guard. Damn cowards!
I am not saying that military service is something that should be required of our leaders. My opinion is, those who lead but have never served OUGHT to be very careful about asking the troops to do what they did NOT have the stones to do.
Welcome to America 2006, land of torture and wire taps on ALL communications. Constitution? We don’t need no stinking Constitution.
Just my 2 cents.
charlie

]]> By: Annie http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4842 Annie Sun, 24 Sep 2006 19:02:10 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4842 Playwright Ariel Dorfman on torture: [this excerpt speaks for itself] "Can't the United States see that when we allow someone to be tortured by our agents, it is not only the victim and the perpetrator who are corrupted, not only the "intelligence" that is contaminated, but also everyone who looked away and said they did not know, everyone who consented tacitly to that outrage so they could sleep a little safer at night, all the citizens who did not march in the streets by the millions to demand the resignation of whoever suggested, even whispered, that torture is inevitable in our day and age, that we must embrace its darkness? Are we so morally sick, so deaf and dumb and blind, that we do not understand this? Are we so fearful, so in love with our own security and steeped in our own pain, that we are really willing to let people be tortured in the name of America?" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/22/AR2006092201303.html Playwright Ariel Dorfman on torture:
[this excerpt speaks for itself]

“Can’t the United States see that when we allow someone to be
tortured by our agents, it is not only the victim and the perpetrator
who are corrupted, not only the “intelligence” that is contaminated,
but also everyone who looked away and said they did not know,
everyone who consented tacitly to that outrage so they could sleep a
little safer at night, all the citizens who did not march in the
streets by the millions to demand the resignation of whoever
suggested, even whispered, that torture is inevitable in our day and
age, that we must embrace its darkness?

Are we so morally sick, so deaf and dumb and blind, that we do not
understand this? Are we so fearful, so in love with our own security
and steeped in our own pain, that we are really willing to let people
be tortured in the name of America?”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/22/AR2006092201303.html

]]> By: Jim http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4826 Jim Sun, 24 Sep 2006 14:19:00 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4826 Wade - public outrage may be the best hope to derail the deal. But I'm not sure how many Americans get outraged any more about their govt's crimes. It is an excellent point you make about how Bush would react if the methods were used on his daughter. Along a similar line, I had a paragraph in the torture chapter in Attention Deficit Democracy trying to bring home to Americans how they would feel if the tables were turned: Many Americans have remained oblivious to the impact that the Abu Ghraib photos and other torture reports have on foreigners. How would Americans have responded if the roles had been reversed? Consider the case of Jessica Lynch, the 20-year-old blond, blue-eyed, attractive West Virginian Army supply clerk captured after her supply convoy was attacked during the invasion of Iraq. The Pentagon and the Washington Post trumpeted grossly deceptive accounts of her capture and rescue that were later exposed as frauds (and which Lynch disavowed). What if Americans had seen photos of Lynch with blood running from cuts on her thighs, cowering before attack dogs lurching at her? What if Americans saw photos of a hooded Lynch with wires attached to her body, looking like she was awaiting electrocution? What if Americans saw videos of Lynch screaming as she was being assaulted by Iraqi captors? Such evidence would likely have swayed millions of Americans to support dropping nuclear bombs on Iraq. Wade - public outrage may be the best hope to derail the deal. But I’m not sure how many Americans get outraged any more about their govt’s crimes.

It is an excellent point you make about how Bush would react if the methods were used on his daughter.

Along a similar line, I had a paragraph in the torture chapter in Attention Deficit Democracy trying to bring home to Americans how they would feel if the tables were turned:
Many Americans have remained oblivious to the impact that the Abu
Ghraib photos and other torture reports have on foreigners. How would
Americans have responded if the roles had been reversed? Consider the case of Jessica Lynch, the 20-year-old blond, blue-eyed, attractive West Virginian Army supply clerk captured after her supply convoy was attacked during the invasion of Iraq. The Pentagon and the Washington Post trumpeted grossly deceptive accounts of her capture and rescue that were later exposed as frauds (and which Lynch disavowed). What if Americans had seen photos of Lynch with blood running from cuts on her thighs, cowering before attack dogs
lurching at her? What if Americans saw photos of a hooded Lynch with wires
attached to her body, looking like she was awaiting electrocution? What if
Americans saw videos of Lynch screaming as she was being assaulted by Iraqi captors? Such evidence would likely have swayed millions of Americans to support dropping nuclear bombs on Iraq.

]]> By: Jim http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4824 Jim Sun, 24 Sep 2006 13:19:25 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4824 John - I don't think we have passed into an "American National Socialism." The terms of the debate accepted by major parties in Germany in the early 1930s were significantly darker than the political baselines in this country. However, both the political Establishment and much of the mainstream media has proven to be very comfortable with the government institutionalizing barbaric practices like torture and suspending habeas corpus. And the trend is certainly downward... John - I don’t think we have passed into an “American National Socialism.” The terms of the debate accepted by major parties in Germany in the early 1930s were significantly darker than the political baselines in this country.

However, both the political Establishment and much of the mainstream media has proven to be very comfortable with the government institutionalizing barbaric practices like torture and suspending habeas corpus. And the trend is certainly downward…

]]> By: Jim http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4823 Jim Sun, 24 Sep 2006 13:15:33 +0000 http://jimbovard.com/blog/2006/09/22/torture-the-law-of-the-land-and-the-torture-mastermind-reviewed/#comment-4823 Tony - I think McCain's thirst for the presidency trumps everything else on this issue. One bright aspect of this torture debacle is that it will help more Americans recognize the moral caliber of their representatives. But, heck, this should have been obvious years or decades ago. Tony - I think McCain’s thirst for the presidency trumps everything else on this issue.

One bright aspect of this torture debacle is that it will help more Americans recognize the moral caliber of their representatives. But, heck, this should have been obvious years or decades ago.

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